The people who designed this website asked me to provide a "blog". if I'm not mistaken, this is an open public discussion forum? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, here's something:
Yesterday I drove two hours into the heart of the Welsh countryside, to a country hotel, to spend half a day on MI with a senior group of general practitioner trainers. The contrasts were sharp: sparkling green cloudless day, and inside, the challenge: how might we use MI in the rehabilitation of doctors who had entered the last procedure before being struck off for disciplinary offenses? If they don’t change their behaviour and attitudes, they are out.
I put some words on a flip-chart (engage, guide, evoke and plan), and because these are very task oriented people, we talked about how and why they could carry out these tasks, and where MI fitted into their difficult cases. How that unfolded might be the subject of another blog.
I enjoy looking at MI from the outside in, thinking backwards from everyday practice, and wondering, as those trainers must have, where on earth does this MI stuff fit in?
At the coffee break something happened: a conversation, a new development and a plan. It forced me to think backwards. Here’s what happened.
I’d met this doctor many times, at this sort of gathering, and at his practice, where he works in one of the most deprived rural towns in Western Europe. He’s Irish, incredibly phlegmatic and highly experienced (30 years in practice).
This what he said (more or less):
Steve, many of the “doctors in trouble” I supervise are not just resistant, which I can handle, but they seem to lack reflective capacity in their heads! Reflective conversations don’t get me very far. Would you be interested in something else I have discovered, which does change their behaviour? I don’t think its MI……
Then he described a sequence.
At Stage 1 they sit right alongside me in the consulting room, and with permission from my patients, I stop the action and ask the doctor questions about what I am doing and why. And we conduct the clinic together.
He described this in some detail, but it was the next stage that was really innovative.
At Stage 2, the next time we work together, I ask permission from the patients to be their advocate. I explain that I am training a doctor to be helpful, and that I want to sit next to them, the patient, and be their advocate. The patients really like this. I sit right next to them, facing the doctor in training, and ask the patient questions, and I also ask the doctor questions. So I slip in and out of two roles, which we all agree on at the outset. I am the patient’s advocate, and I am also sometimes the trainer of the doctor.
He described a third stage, but his observation about Stage 2 were very striking:
Steve, I see the most difficult “problem doctors” change in front of my eyes. They develop a reflective capacity right there in front of me. I have taken many through this procedure.
We agreed that I would come up with a camera crew and we would film the whole sequence in real-life practice, capture the reactions on film of all involved, and produce a DVD and then write a paper on the method.
MI is tied up there somewhere, but not in a familiar form. He uses a guiding style in Stage 2 for sure, and when questioning the doctor while sitting alongside the patient, I think he elicits change talk. Then the doctor has to act on the change talk immediately…. And behaviour changes…..
That’s a my provisional impression. It will be interesting to see if the videos reveal this, and other things too.









What went through my mind were three things: First, it is a standard psychodrama technique. When I was a pup I had the good fortune to work for Malcolm E. Shaw who was a psychodramatist. I learned a great deal from Mal who had trained with Moreno and also had the opportunity to watch Moreno and his wife, Zerca, at their studio in New York City. "Doubling," in psychodramatic language is taking on the role of another and usually speaking what is unsaid by the other to the client (in this case the doctor in training). What is powerful about doubling is that both the person doubled as well as the client learn from it.
Second, it is role modeling a la Bandura for the patient.
Third, I think it does fit into MI in a slightly round about way. Rather than giving "advice" directly to the doctor in the voice of the trainer, the double speaks to the doctor in such a way that (my hunch) provides feedback or asks for something from the doctor. It let's the doctor know to do something differently and tells the doctor what that is.
VK
Hi Steve,
Fascinating story from your colleague. I will be interested to hear how it all turns out. I love the idea of training social work students/interns (my bailiwick) by having them sit first with their field instructor as s/he interviews the client, discussing why's and how's along the way, and then sitting with the client, having the same conversation from the client's perspective.
I came across the "Empathy Cycle" by Barrett-Lennard (1981) a few years ago. In it he discusses "empathic resonation" whereby the counselor/interviewer resonates with the statements of the clients so that the client's experience becomes "experientially alive, vivid, and known" to the interviewer which are then reflected back to the client. In learning reflective listening skills, I ask my social work students to think about what the client might be experiencing before he or she even meets with his or her social worker. I think this helps to develop the ideas about attending to client speech and reflecting not only what clients are saying but also what is not being said. Physically sitting with the client during an interview may also increase the empathic resonation perhaps?
Mindy Hohman
San Diego
I'd like to ask Guy and fellow MINTies what you would like in the way of a blog from me? What's the difference between a blog and a posting on the eforum?
Help please, and then I'll respond accordingly.
One other question: is a blog like this just for viewing by members, or is it on display to everyone?
Kind regards,
Steve
PS Bill has reached Odense, Denmark where he will spend two months, and he's clcosing in on the meeting of "MINT Elephants" in Sweden. Now that could form an interesting blog. If I am there, I'll do some big game viewing and report back?